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Update on New Talks

Dr Wolfgang Wodarg - Transcript of Interview 2


                                   Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg

Planet Lockdown Interview 2    



…How to swim if you jump into deep water, and I learnt how to swim so I am not afraid, and it is very good to have people with whom you can discuss, and I was with Reiner Fuellmich and with Vivienne Fischer and with the Corona Committee, the truth committee, and I was founding with them and inventing this instrument, and I am accompanying the lawyers working in this group and I find out that we get stronger and stronger and we learn a lot. If you are not alone, if you are working like this, it’s not so difficult to say the truth, it’s not so difficult to come out. You have to look for partners, you have to look for mates with whom you can go this way. It’s hard, but it’s okay, you feel good when you do it and you feel free if you stick to the truth, what you think is the truth, and be open for discussion.

The most important thing when you look for solutions is to find the right questions, so you could have good questions; I think good questions are the most important thing. What has changed with this pandemic in the life of people and when did it change, why didn’t it change all over the world with all people, if it’s a pandemic? Why can you just switch the problem off like in China when you stop for some time making the tests? There are many good questions you can ask, and you can try to find out what is the answer, but you know in this situation we are not allowed to ask some questions because we would touch some power, we would destroy some business and this is the problem today. We cannot ask questions and cannot discuss about them because there is big power, there is big money, and if we had the same money to pay for science and to pay more, if we had institutes that only live from our taxes and not from some Bill and Melinda Gate Foundation and such things, I think life would be easier, we could easily find out what is good for us. We don’t have it. We gave up. We left it over.

Different [in] the world now is the self-organisation of the people in society, that it has been taken over like it was in the medieval times by some people who are more powerful than others. We try to exploit them, and those people who collected our money all of those years, like Amazon, like Google, like, I don’t know, Facebook, and they get richer and richer and they sell us things, and we say “Oh we need it, we need it, we need it!” So we are devoted, we are just bowing down, we are just getting dependent. And what happens is that we get [become] slaves like that, that we don’t do it ourselves anymore, that they make us dependent like a drug dealer makes his customers dependent. When you see all those people looking at their mobile phones all the time, all day, there is such an interface between brain and the electronic world. This interface exists, it’s not in our brain, the only difference if you have a brain interface that you don’t have to have your mobile phone in your hand any longer, you have it in your brain, so you have your hands free, this the only difference. But we have already the interface between our brain and the internet. It’s the mobile phone, and they use it, they programme us with their apps and with their software, with their questions, it’s their questions we answer, and we are eager to answer, and we are happy to fund you, it’s not the questions we ourselves develop, it’s not our problem.

I think we need smaller things we can understand, and not big things we can never understand. The very, very big things like the Google system, for instance, it’s not possible to find out where they betray us and where not. I think we have to organise our life in a way that is easy to…, there is transparency, we need transparency to understand what’s going on so that we can say, “Oh no, this is wrong, this will be dangerous”, but we cannot. We just say, “Okay they do it, I don’t know why, I don’t have the means to look through, so I just follow them”. They make us dependent like this. It’s too big for humans. It’s too big for normal societies who live together. They just dominate us. They tell us, and they are now consequently planning to do it still stronger, to have power as to collect our data and to educate us. I don’t know why Mr Zuckerberg shall educate my children or educate me. No, I don’t want it. I think he’s not the one to educate my children and the Google people are not the ones to educate my children. They learnt how to earn money and how to dominate. It’s not what my children should learn, there are so many nicer things to learn.

Planet Lockdown Interviewer: How would you describe briefly the first step for people to take?

Dr Wolfgang Wodarg: I experienced first steps in our society. I experienced, for instance, a region where the Lord Mayor was going to the health insurance companies to say, “How much did you spend on my citizens for caring for psychiatric diseases? How much did you spend last year?” And they calculated and they calculated for 100, 80,000 people and they said so-and-so millions we spend for psychiatric diseases. The Lord Mayor said, “Okay, give me the budget. You will give ten percent and I, with this budget, will prevent psychiatric diseases, so I will care for the people, that they don’t get crazy, and that they don’t drink, and they don’t do such things that divert them, and you will save money with it because you don’t need expensive hospital care and such things. We will make prevention and we earn money with prevention.” And it works in Germany. There are regions working like this. I was so much happy to see this. It’s not only one, there are several regions who do it like this, and you could not do it only for psychiatric diseases, you could do it just like the Scandinavians did it for many, many years; they always did it like this. I am coming from the Scandinavian border of Germany, so I know what our neighbours did, and they just had small budgets for the community, and they cared for the old people, and when the care was not good, they were ashamed because they experienced, it was their responsibility. They got the money, and they were responsible for their old people. This is the ideal way.

Why should there be a shareholder company organising the care in our Germany, and promising a profit of ten percent revenue? It’s horrible what happens! It’s our responsibility for our neighbours, for our families, and we can organise such things. We can organise care, we can organise healthcare. Okay, the state can help us to find out which products work, and which not. We can learn from each other what is the best way to care, so the principal of subsidiarity is very important. If we want a new society, we have to follow the principals of subsidiarity. Let the people solve their problems themselves as long as it is possible, and only if they ask for help then the bigger thing can help the smaller thing. So, such things we have to find out and I think it will be very, very nice to do it. I think there is this big problem with the money. I think we are all dependent on this medium of exchange. We all use money - dollars, euros - and they can do us a lot of harm with money. They can even take away the money, so we have to think what we can do. If we do this normal exchange between people - one wants to sell something, the other want to buy something, and we exchange services. So we have to find out what means of exchange we can use, what media we can use for trade in a smaller regions, and how we can connect this with other regions. So we have to start again, I think we have to start again, and there will be a little bit of… how can I say it? Okay, it won’t be possible to buy a Tesla in Northern Germany for some time, perhaps, because the economical connections are no longer working, and you won’t get a credit for buying a big, big factory from your bank, perhaps, so it will be slower, everything.

But in this field the great reset should be very content. I think there is some… but the only difference between the great reset from Davos and the other great reset I think of is that we ourselves struggle for our great reset, and that not some autocrat, some billionaires just tell us what to do and control us. This is the difference. This is the only thing we have to care. It’s our thing, it’s not easy, we share this (inaudible). There will still be problems, as always, but I think we don’t get slaves then, we keep our dignity as single individuals, we keep our dignity, and this is so important. Nobody shall become the means of someone else. Then we are lost. We have to fight.

If one person, one human being does something as he thinks he should do it and the other human being is just some instrument for him, it is no longer his brother; there is a dependency. And the one who is exploited, and who is used as an instrument, he will lose his dignity if he cannot say what he wants, if he does not have the same rights. We discussed so many centuries about such things, we elaborated such good laws, we have fundamental laws everywhere, and we are fond of them. It’s two years ago, every politician was telling us about human rights, about dignity and the Greens in Germany were travelling to China, said “No, no, you don’t care! You don’t watch the dignity; you are putting people to prison, you are controlling them”, and now they want to do it as the Chinese people do. Something in their head changed. They follow the money, the follow the power, they make it easy. It’s not easy.

think they have too much money. We take away their things, cannot even use them. They now try to exchange the money they have - hundreds of billions - they try to exchange against power. They buy power, and I think we should not allow this. In a democracy, it’s our power. We should not sell it for money, which is in a big bubble. They can print money as much as they want, they can bribe all of us with money which is worthless. This is what they just do, they pay everyone who follows, they pay all the people, the doctors who give the jabs, they pay the laboratories, they pay all people that, follow that sayYes, yes,” and then they get money. Well, this money is of no value in the long run, and they know it.

They have lots of it so, they would exchange this money against power, because when they have the power, they can do what they want. When they have the power, when they have the data, it’s power. You can influence, and if you have the media, the information media, the newspapers, the television stations - if you can switch down YouTube channels, you can decide who can say something and who can discuss, and who’s no longer able to be critical what to discuss with the others. So, it’s such a big thing we experience, a very big thing, and I’m so happy that there is no violence needed to do this all. They did not use military up to now. The people did not make war up to now. There are some people who used violence and there were some victims already, I know, but it’s not like a war, and I think… The Indian people they experienced it when they were getting rid of the British Government, of the British colonial ship or how you say it, so they were struggling. It was Gandhi who made it a peaceful thing, and very, very powerful thing, and think we can learn lot off those Indian people who did it already and are starting it again. I was so happy to see it how the farmers in India were no longer content beingbetrayedbytheirowngovernment,andIthinktherearesomanypeoplein Germany or in US betrayed by their own government, they could do it like the farmers in India. We could learn a lot from them. But it’s peaceful. Just don’t follow them.

You can laugh about him, he is naked, the king is naked. You know this story about the child, everyone was obeying, was afraid from the king, and the only one who was looking at this king and recognising “Oh it’s not true what he says, there is no power, he’s naked”. And I think it’s a very good fairy tale, very much fitting to the situation. We should become like children now, and I think it will be great fun to laugh about those crazy people who tried to influence the whole world, those few people; the world nobody really understands. And how can you govern a world, how can you just say you know better - you must be crazy to do such things! We don’t want to be herded by crazy people.

There are lots of structures in our society that are still working, that are working well, and we can change this dependency from foreign money, from this private public partnerships, organising our public life - just kick them out! I think we have to take back the infrastructure we need - the schools, the railways, the television. We have to control it in a democratic state, and there can be business. You can earn a lot of money with other things. They can produce things, but not allow them making us dependent, when they take over our infrastructure, what we need, what is our identity, our health system, our communication. This may not be influenced by some mighty rich people somewhere; it’s our thing.

It’s ironic, the history is very funny. I made reports in the Council of Europe about the role of media for democracy, and I organised this discussion in the Council of Europe with forty-seven member states, and I discussed Reporters Without Frontiers and with other organisations, and we developed indicators. We developed twenty-six indicators to monitor states that want to become members of the European Union. I did this in the working group with some very clever people, together, and I was repertoire. It was my initiative and we really succeeded to define twenty-six indicators. They were used, for instance, in Serbia and in other states that tried to enter the European Union, and some of the indicators say that the media shall be independent from politicians. They may not be influenced by any means. They should be free from political influence, and this was the main thing. They all agreed on this, but there started some problems when I wanted more indicators, the independence from the money people. It was more difficult to get those indicators through and they are too weak, I think. What we experience now is that it’s not the big dictators who are just telling the media, there are some states where it happens like this, when I think of Turkey and how journalists are just endangered because they say something. This is political power limiting journalism and limiting the media. But most of the limiting, they just buy the media, and they fire the people who don’t say what they want to hear. This is more dangerous now and this is in all Western countries, in all - I don’t like the word - capitalistic countries, you can observe this, it’s like that. So, we have to, perhaps, to sharpen those indicators a little bit in future. There should be a new report, I would like to work with it.

We speak about conflict of interests, and it’s very much elaborated how to avoid conflicts of interest, so we have transparency, and we have the interests that are at the table, have them laid down for everyone and make it transparent, and we discuss a lot about this. This is a preventive way to deal with power, and if we don’t do it, there is the risk of corruption. There are powerful or rich people who just buy things, buy functions, and this fight for trustworthiness of… that if you entrust things to an organisation you have to rely on it, and if there is institutional corruption you cannot, so we have to fight institutional corruption. There is so much institutional corruption. What we observe now is the result of institutional corruptions. Our agencies don’t protect us against liars, against false results of science. They are there to protect us normally. And the funny thing is within the institutions there are people who want to do the right thing. They are not the bosses, but they are people who used to do the right thing for all their life in those institutions, and they suddenly find out that the boss says something different because he’s listening to politics. The politicians sent him there, put him there, to say what the politicians like to hear; and the bosses of those institutions… you only become the boss of such an institution if you do what the government wants you to do. And all those employees who are looking for the truth, they are afraid now to come out. And I think we should think it over, we should not have such institutions without democratic control. So the decision who becomes the boss of a very important institution like Robert Koch’s Institute or Paul Ehrlich Institute, or the CDC, or FDA, or something like that, we should have discussion, we should have… the opposition should be involved and we should agree on someone who we can trust, and who we can take away again if we see, in this transparent system, that there are secondary interests that are dangerous. So, we have to change a lot.

It was in 2009 when I was working on the swine flu issue, I was still a parliamentarian, and I used my chance as a parliamentarian to table the motion. The name of the motion was fake pandemic, and this was shocking so many people that they were very much interested in the topic, and because it was forty-seven member states at the Council of Europe, you have the opposition there, you have the governing parties there, so you can raise a topic where the opposition is interested, you can raise a topic where the governments are interested and there’s always discussion - it’s a very vivid discussion going on there on many topics on human rights, democracy and the rule of law.

Even if you are a politician, if you find out something and you have to come out with it, and you have to convince a majority, it is always a little bit… it’s endangering your career perhaps, and so I tried it when I found out it was a fake, the pandemic was a fake, the swine flu pandemic was a fake, I went to Parliament in Germany and I showed up and said ”Dear colleagues, I have to tell you something. You are preparing to buy millions of doses of vaccines, but they are dangerous, and they are useless. You are spending lots of millions for nothing, and you endanger the people”. And I explained this in ten minutes, and they were all listening, there were 250 people in the room, they were all listening for ten minutes without making noise or without reacting, it was quiet. When I finished it kept quiet, there was no one showing up and they are professionals, they are professional politicians, they were very much astonished about this reaction. And even the minister who was, before, announcing that she bought fifty million doses of vaccines, that we should all be content and go to our constituencies and tell the people they have enough vaccines, and I said “No, you don’t need it, it’s a fake”, and there was quiet, they were all quiet, but there was no reaction. And the president said, “Anything else, anything else to say, to discuss?” and nobody discussed. So, I was frustrated about this. It was like speaking into cotton wool. Then I went to the Council of Europe, and that was easier. I was head of the committee, and I tabled it and I found enough signers who signed it. And we tabled it in the parliamentary assembly, and we had a committee examining the whole thing, the whole fake. And I found a colleague from Great Britain who was continuing, because I stopped being a parliamentarian then, but I accompanied this process as an expert, and he invited me as an expert, so I was in the matter the whole time and it was very interesting. And I learned a lot about WHO, and about corruption, and I learned about how WHO works, how it has changed in the last twenty years.

You feel, and if you say what you want to say, if you say the necessary [things] then you will have a reaction, and then you just have to decide whether you… what is more important? That everything is quiet and you don’t have problems, or whether you have more problems if you don’t say it? And I decided, I know that I have more problems if I’m quiet, because I have a responsibility as a politician and as a doctor who knows those things, I am the one who trained all his life dealing with infections, with epidemics, with epidemiology, this is my work. So, if I would be quiet, I could not see myself in the mirror anymore.

You know there are people who take the easy way because they get a lot as a reward, if they keep quiet. I know there are many people who know what happens and who don’t come out because they are, some of them they get a lot of money, that they say the opposite. And some of them are just afraid to lose their job, and I can very well understand those people - having a family, scientists or people working in administration. And there are scientists in administrations who very well know what is going on, but they don’t come out because they are afraid to come out, and they would risk a lot. I don’t risk so much. I don’t risk as someone who is… I have a pension, I worked all my life and now I have a pension. I was a politician and neither as a politician nor as someone who is in pension there is any risk for me. I lose all my site jobs, or I lose friends, you lose a lot of people who don’t want you to say it, to speak out because it makes them feel bad when you speak out and they don’t dare to speak out, and so there are tensions, and you have to know it in advance. I’m not angry about them, I can understand them, and I hope they’ll get along when their conscience in the long run if something bad happens. I think there is a big responsibility of science in there. All my former colleagues who are the head of public health offices, who learned the same as I did, they should know what happens. And there are some speaking out, they are coming out and they say, “No! This is not a pandemic. This is not right what you do.” I know a handful, but there are more than four hundred leaders of public health offices in Germany, all over Germany, and there are some thousand who work there and who know, and it would be good if they came out, but it’s not easy to come out.

I only know the meaning of today, I don’t know the meaning of life. It’s nice to have people who trust you, and it’s nice if you can make people happy. It’s the nicest thing. It’s nice if you can give something and you see that people like it and that people need you and that you can, I think the best thing is to be with people, and that you have people who say, it’s good to be with you. So, I don’t know, I can lose everything but not that.

Planet Lockdown Interviewer: So, it’s human relationships?

Dr Wolfgang Wodarg: Yes, you can say that it’s like brotherhood, or however you say, fraternity, I don’t know, friendship. You know, this was, we don’t, it’s not so easy in a society where the role of family members are diverted, they all work, they all have outside interests so what was the family, with all the conflicts in the family, with all the discussions in the family, with all the different interests in the family, but there was a family. Nobody questioned it, and they felt as a member, as a family, they felt somewhere at home, but this has been spoiled by the way we now live in this economically shaped world. It’s about earning money, earning one’s life. It’s about competition. And you know one thing I found out, when you install competition, brotherhood is destroyed. Everywhere, with so many people, they say competition makes society more successful, we have more ideas in competition, and they seduce us into competition. Even in health, our health system used to be a solidarity thing. We say, the poor people getting ill; we all pay a little bit and then we can help them. We had solidarity with the sick people, but this has changed. Those companies now, insurance companies, in competition, they look for people who are not expensive and that pay a lot. So, they look for the money. There’s… the idea of solidarity is gone in our health systems and in our insurance companies. And now the church is ringing I hope people gather there.

It’s important for you, and it’s important for your friends and for your neighbours that you say the right thing. If you don’t say the right thing, your neighbours can’t rely on you anymore. They will find out you don’t say the right things. I think when you say the right things to people who do wrong, you lose friends perhaps.

Planet Lockdown Interviewer: What, I mean, to not say the right thing or do what is right, do or speak the truth - why is it important to speak truth, to do good things?

Dr Wolfgang Wodarg: You know I’m very fond of the principle of science, which is doubting, and I grew up with scientists in my professional life and I got to know many very good scientists. And the best ones were those who never believed, who always were doubting, who were always asking questions - such a present if you ask questions, if you doubt, because then you start thinking again. And in science, you don’t believe. So, when you grow up in such an environment, where the rules are like that, it’s not a bad thing to doubt, it’s not a bad thing to speak out “you’re wrong with your numbers”, “you’re wrong with your results”, “I think you forgot something when you made your science”. And this is a present, and if you suddenly, in science, experience that people are quiet, that they hide data, that they don’t publish when they don’t have the result the sponsor likes, you feel very, very bad, you are no longer in science. This is not science, this is business, this is earning money, this is I don’t know what, but it’s not science. I like looking for truth and I know what was truth yesterday will not be truth tomorrow, but the truth is doubting, and we can rely on science because we can rely on their doubt and, it makes me happy that it is like that and I don’t want to miss this because it’s not bad to doubt. It is professional, it is professional work.

I can say something about the first step; the first step is very, very difficult sometimes because you are with people who have arranged with you, and if there is something which is very new and which is mixing up the whole discussion you had before, all the values you had before, you were believing this institution, this politician is good, you were discussing and suddenly you find out this politician is not good, he’s lying, he’s betraying you because he likes his cars and his houses in the long run. I don’t think someone who does this would have a big conscience, bad conscience, and I think there is more value in it to speak out and to say, even if you are wrong. You have to be aware that with your new ideas you might be wrong, but if you are not afraid to have the discussion there’s no problem - you can be wrong! You can learn, but if there’s no discussion, if the discussion is not allowed and you are calmed down, if you’re wiped out in the channels, if your books are burnt, I think this is a society I don’t want to live in, and then I start fighting. I want to live in a society where we strive for truth, where we try to find out the right way for all of us and I think this is worthwhile, I feel good doing all of this.

You know it’s very difficult to be true to oneself when you don’t have a fixed picture of yourself, when in the morning you’re suddenly astonished with who you are, and you find out you have changed, so this orientation, I don’t have it. I don’t have me as a person as someone who is fixed whom you can calculate how he acts, it’s recursive, I have to use my intellect as long as it works. I have to use my language as good as possible and I have to be curious and I have to find out, with other people, the truth, the best ways to live and such things, and so I don’t look at myself as something I have to follow. I’m there I’m new every day, and I think this is a present.

Planet Lockdown Interviewer: Yes, so I guess you say to be true to yourself is the sort of goal of all this, huh?

Dr Wolfgang Wodarg: Yes. You have your way you learnt to get along with the problems of your daily life and of your work and you have a set of possibilities, and you use them, and at the same time you know others have it too. So the nicest thing is to learn and to find out new things, and to discuss about it, so there is something developing together in communication, and this is what I live for.

I think we have the big possibility; we have choices, we can come out, we can open the shops, we can put away the mask and we can speak about it. We can find others who do it with us, not to do it alone, we are weak alone, but if we find enough people whom recognise and whom you can convince what nonsense is happening and how its destroying our daily life, I think this is a good experience and we should hurry. We should open, we should forget those lies. They are lying and we have, in front of our children, we have the duty to say the truth. Our children wearing masks it is impossible, it is a thing we cannot tolerate, that children are damaged like that. Or that old people in care houses are alone, may not be visited. They themselves can decide whether they prefer to have their children and grandchildren around, or whether they want to be alone because they are afraid - they can do it themselves. No law maker can decide this, and we should advise them, we should inform them if they want, but what we see now we see old people deprived of their families and dying alone, and there is even no staff anymore because they are all in quarantine. The staff has diminished, old people are more and more alone, and old people don’t like to live anymore under such circumstances.

This is what we do. This is what we watch, and those people who frighten us, who try to calm us down with vaccinations, the vaccinations are killing even more people than they save, as we see it now. In many countries we have very, very bad reports. We have to stop this, because we are responsible and the politicians who tell us that it is important that this happens, we cannot tolerate them anymore doing this to us. We elected them and they just don’t follow the rules, and they don’t follow their own rules, even. So, I think something has to happen very soon.

We have a choice to do something because we are millions of people, and those people are few. Do you think they will tell their soldiers to shoot at their own people? The soldiers won’t do it because they belong to us. They have their families, they have children in our schools too, they suffer too from nonsense, and I think soldiers, policemen, there are many policemen now speaking up, and there are people coming out. And first, there are those shop owners that are closed down, those artists they cannot work anymore and they are the first to show up because they cannot lose more than they have already lost, and I think others will follow. We all will lose if we don’t speak up.

If they want to make us a machine, if they want to make us slaves, we say no, we don’t want to become slaves. Just piss off, we don’t need you anymore. We are many. We can just go on, we can just go to bars and go to shops, we don’t have to be afraid of any pandemic. There is no pandemic. It’s a fake, and it’s so evident now if you see all numbers, it’s so evident, and they still go on lying. It’s just like a mafia, it’s horrible, and we don’t have to tolerate this. It’s our right to speak up.   It’s our society, it’s our democracy. It’s good to speak out, how free do we feel.

There are some countries, I saw pictures from Egypt where nobody wears a mask, where they just go out to the market as always. The Government says to the World Bank, yes we do everything, but the people, they don’t give a shit, and they just go on living and this is right. And in Tanzania, there the politicians even say it’s okay, the people can go on, it’s a fake, and I hope we have politicians in the future that do the same. We still have the old ones who lie, who are lying, but there will be elections, and we will go to the elections and we will kick them away, all those traditional parties who are just joining those liars and are betraying us, who are afraid of losing their power if they don’t follow the mighty ones in Davos. They have no chance, next elections they will be gone.

And then, we will find that it is difficult because it is anyway - it is a great reset what is happening, but it should not become the reset the Davos people, the club in Davos, wants us to have. We will have our own reset, and this will be a big struggle - a democratic struggle and we will have new ideas and we will try to find out the right ones. Perhaps we find a different way of organising our societies. Perhaps we have many smaller societies just networking together.

Yes, I think we are blocked, and we cannot do the right thing if we are afraid, so we have to free ourselves, we have to help ourselves. One has to help the other to get rid of those fears and to start thinking again, and to be rational. You have to be brave, and to be brave, you also have to find companions who are brave too, because it’s easier to be brave when you are not alone. If you’re alone and brave maybe you just die, and nobody cares. You said the right thing, nobody listened. You were brave, you’re dead, there’s no use, so you have to find other people, so you have to fight with others together. So, you have to be tactical. Braveness may sometimes be stupid. If you want to change something to the good, you’re not allowed to be stupid. You have to be clever, because you are responsible for others.